One thing Darcy sed was — “... stand up for Canada before there is nothing left to stand up for.”
I reckon that's what I'm doin'.
In Darce's comments, the same folks agitatin' fer separatism is also backin' Stevie Harpoon an' the CPC. That gets me wonderin’ sumpin’. If the separatists is backin’ the CPC. Is the CPC a federalist, national party or is it an Alberta separatist party. I don’t reckon anybuddy outside o’ Alberty’d wanna vote fer an Alberty separatist so how can anybuddy blame Ontario fer not votin’ fer Harpoon?
When the damn separatists in Q-beck agitate, it’s all ’bout culture an’ language an’ such. When the AlienAlberts agitate, it’s all ’bout money. Money. Money. Money. There’s sum greedy bastards who can’t think o’ nuthin’ else an’ are willin’ t’ sell their patriotism t’ the highest bidder.
If the Alberty separatists was fightin’ fer culture, they might be worthy o’ sum respect. When they’re jest lookin’ fer more bucks in their pockets, they get pitied an’ scorned like the prostitutes they are.
Jest suppose these numbnutses could ever convince enuff Alberty voters t’ separate –
- Is the sovereign nation of Alberty gonna print it’s own money? Any idee on how the Alberty dollar’ll do on the world money markets?
- Is Alberty gonna build up it’s own military? How’re the Merkins gonna react to a new national army on its border?
- Will every border crossin’ be like Windsor/Detroit or Ft. Erie/Buffalo? How much will it cost t' build all them checkpoints an' hire all o' them border guards?
- How ’bout tariffs an’ import-export duties? Nafta? Cafta?
- Is the sovereign nation of Alberty gonna accept immigrants from Sasky or Newfie or Montana? Is Canadee gonna accept immigrants from Alberty?
- Is Alberty gonna send a ambassador t’ the UN? How ’bout diplomats fer all the countries in the world? Got that in the budget?
- How’s Alberty gonna do tradin’ on the world markets when she’s a landlocked nation with a population of 'bout 3 million?
- How ’bout all the existin’ federal real estate like post office buildin’s an’ army camps? Is Alberty plannin’ t’ buy them from TROC or do they reckon we’ll jest hand ‘em over fer free?
- How ’bout all o’ the federal gummint employees workin’ in Alberty? Is Alberty gonna give ‘em all jobs?
- How ’bout the First Nations? Is Alberty gonna honour treaties signed by Canajuns? What if the First Nations wanna separate from Alberty?
- What about the patriotic federalist Alberts who vote “No” in a referendumb? Do they get Alberty cityzenship or do they get deported t’ Canadee? Is 50% +1 enuff t’ separate? How’s the new nation gonna fare if 49% don’t wanna new nation?
- How ’bout the Canadee Pension Plan? Anybuddy reckon Canadee’ll wanna finance pensions in sum new foreign country?
- How ’bout the “stoopid” charter o’ rights Ezra an’ his bunch don’t like? Will the cityzens o’ Alberty know whether they get any rights before they vote t’ break up our home an’ native land?
In 50 years or so, after the oil’s gone or scarce an' after the world’s figgered out how t’ run cars an’ generate electricity from alternate fuels an’ after a few more mad cow incidents kill the beef market, is Alberty gonna come beggin’ Canadee t’ let ‘er back in?
My ol’ Pappy useta say — “Don’t cut off yer nose t’ spite yer face.” I reckon sum Alien Alberts might wanna take a damn good look before they leap.
Yores trooly,
JimBobby
53 comments:
If you go to the Separation Party of Alberta website (http://www.separationalberta.com/faq.asp), they do answer a lot of your questions except one ... one very important one.
What happens to Albertans, like myself, who do not want to separate?
Lex
Lex,
The Separation Party of Alberta has an incredibly idealized view of a post-separation Alberta.
They fail to address a stack of serious and significant issues:
Funding of a military of any sort is incredibly expensive.
Economic factors such as trade with the Canadian provinces.
International relations (and the costs of establishing a diplomatic/trade presence on the world stage)
Citizenship rights.
Legal infrastructure (just what would the basis of law in a sovereign Alberta look like???)
Existing contracts? (Would separation dissolve existing legal contracts - such as say - mortgages?)
Currency ...
The list is practically endless - and that's before you start dealing with the likely exodus of people that do not cleave to the separatist ideals, and the impact of that evacuation afterwards on the Alberta economy.
I posed the question to the SPA in regards to how they are going to handle non-separtists... waiting for a reply.
It doesn't surprise me that they haven't put more thought into the ramifications of separation. Can guarantee that big oil out of the States will rake them over the coals when oil royalities are renegotiated.
Honestly, big oil doesn't want to see that kind of change and seeing that they do have a strong arm on Alberta's budget, can't see separation being a reality.
Lex
I think even in Calgary - the apparent root of much so-called western alienation you would find few people interested in separation once they start to consider the implications.
Easy. Partitioning Lex. Federalist areas (such as Edmonton) would remain part of Canada. If the provincials take this path, the federal Government should enforce partitioning based on pro and anti-seperation voting results by district. I doubt the seperatists will go on with the secession if it means losing their provincial capital (and all those refineries of course).
From the sounds of their reply to me (on my blog), the SPA philosophy is "If its in Alberta, its ours after separation. Screw you if you owned it first."
Lex
I think yer be'in just might hard on these separatists fellers JimBobby.. in the interests of being fair and all I propose that we give them back what they had back in 1871 when this great country took shape and let them run with it.
They might find it a bit tough to get by seeing as how they didn't actually exist at the time but ya know... they're resourceful people and in any event I'm sure that the Northwest Territories would be happy to get back what was taken from them.
I do find it interesting that so many of those that favour this idiocy of Albertan/Western separation are also firm supporters of Mr. Harper's CPC. It does raise the question, why? If they are truly interested in separation of their region from Canada, why then would they be supporting a federalist party with a federalist leader looking to govern the entirety to Canada and prevent any secessionist movement from succeeding as one of his primary duties as PM?
Indeed, one of the elements of my distrust of the CPC is directly rooted in the amount of western/Albertan separatists that seem to feel comfortable supporting and campaigning for Harper and the CPC. I have a hard time understanding why they would do so unless they see in such a leadership the means to make their endevour of separation more likely and easier to accomplish. For me, anything that would help separatists achieve their goals is something to be opposed at every opportunity. That this element appears to have significant representation at the apex of the CPC troubles me greatly as to their true intentions if they gain power.
After all, one of their biggest notions is the need for further devolution of powers to the Provinces. Indeed, how many times have any of us run across Conservatives talking about the "tyranny" of Ottawa/federal government? Yet this is the most decentralized federation on the planet. For that matter, their willingness and comfort in throwing around terms like dictatorship, tyranny, totalitarian state and similar language sickens me.
Why? Because none of these terms apply to Canada in the slightest. They apply to places like North Korea, China, Syria, they do not apply to us. Their usage, and worse their apparent belief in their applicableness to the Canadian political environment tells me that they have no understanding of the words they so casually bandy about and defend as accurate reflections of reality. They also tell me that they have little to no real understanding of Canadian society, government, and history, else they would recognize their idiocy for what it is.
Bottom line, these arguments and those that make it come off as spoiled children that think they deserve everything they want without having to worry about negative consequences. Unfortunately for them life/reality does not work that way. They talk about how Alberta can prosper better on it's own, but never explain how they would fund the necessary institutions of a nation. Nor do they explain how they would keep their currently secure trade arrangements within North America. Nor do they explain any of the mechanics of separation and the legal codes that will govern their new State.
No, all they see is the shiny bauble of their imaginations, wishful thinking on a grand scale. However, unlike the Quebecois Separatists who have at least thought about the actual mechanics of separation and the problems involved in setting up a new nation, these separatists chase a fantasy without substance. That they get themselves so worked up over a clear push poll with poor to useless a methodology employed to get proper sampling only illustrates this inability to deal with the topic honestly and in real terms instead of their fantasy of an easy ride into that glorious sunset.
Twits.
Peter:
I'm an Albertan - from my POV the separatists have a lot of work to do to convince me that separation is practical and worthwhile.
So far what I've seen is an amazing amount of innuendo, whinging and distorted realities. Hardly enough to persuade me to consider the proposal as viable.
Don't forget, most of us are born and raised Candian in the first place. You (as a separatist) are asking us to give up something that is intangible and much treasured by most that I know.
Lex asked:
"What happens to Albertans, like myself, who do not want to separate?"
Well here's a possibility that might be less far fetched than it appears at first glance.....
They throw you over the firewall into the lava moat.
"Please. Alberta is a can-do province."
Regrettable, then, that none of them can answers JimBobby's questions.
Whooee! Thankee all fer chimin' in. Yer right, Balb. I woulda thought we'd have the separatists in here answerin' them questions one by one - or at least answerin' one of 'em. A feller who made lyin' accusations an' never took 'em back sez them things I asked 'bout is jest trivialities. Yeow! If them's trivialities, what's important? Selfsame sexy marryin'?
Monetary policy is a triviality? Military policy is a triviality?
Diplomatic policy is a triviality?
Human rights is a triviality?
First Nations issues is a triviality?
Citizenship and immigration policy is a triviality?
Border security is a triviality?
Them things ain't trivial, as any fool can see.
Bustin' up Canadee ain't trivial, neither. I seen sum yammerin' jackass brayin' over t' Dust My Broom that Canajuns should ignore the AlienAlbert separatists at our peril. But when sumbuddy don't ignore 'em an' pays attention an' asks sum specific questions, they say leave us Albertans alone t' decide if Canadee busts in two.
LexFeller, thankee fer pointin' t' where they think they got all the answers. I know yer a patriotic Canajun an' I think it's funny no AlienAlbert Separatists even went over t' the ASP an' tried t' make a decent argument.
As fer what yer gonna do when Alberty separates, don't lose any sleep, LexMan. Flyin' pigs'll be havin' snowball fights in Hell before that ever happens.
JB
What I've seen on the separatist side over the last couple of days has not impressed me. Of course, it's not necessary that they impress me, and it's clear they're already impressed enough with themselves.
But...to be frank...they have not conducted themselves in our discussions with intellectual honesty, discipline, or rigour. Effective political movements require all three: what we're getting here is spiteful, adolescent petulance, deteriorating quickly into bloggish name calling. (I've given up on your other thread, JB...it's deteriorated into the kind of tot-like crap I associate with LGF.)
You asked some hard, fair questions. The fact that none of your opponents stepped up to the plate to discuss them speaks volumes for the credibility of their position.
There certainly is plenty of room to discuss legitimate concerns about what is at the heart of western alienation, and I'm more than convinced that these can be addressed within provincial/federal jurisdictional negotiations. Even devolution of power is not that big a deal, since it's a core element of federal states.
But some things just can't be helped. If we still call ourselves a federation, which we continue to agree collectively must uphold some national standards in certain key areas, and if this doesn't meet with the approval of minority groups in our society, what can we do about that? That's a problem that exists in every political unit, and it will never go away.
Yelling "Separation!" at the drop of a hat over every thing is just a such a non-starter.
And it's most definitely a non-starter when the motivation of that yell is not any real concern for democracy or the betterment of people living in an egalitarian society, but some, hidden (or not so hidden) agenda, such as greed or 5th column propaganda campaigns driven from outside the country (...if you know what I mean.)
I agree with Ti Guy. A centralist/regionalist push and pull is at the heart of every federation, and part of the ongoing political dynamic in both Canada and the US (where, I believe, they actually fought a war about it or something.) But if one looks at the Martin government's record, and particularly its stance on the Health Accord, it's difficult to make the case that the current government is a centralist one.
One of the things I found most disturbing in our dialogue with separatist friends was their apparent indifference to the views of Aboriginal peoples in their proposed new country. One would think that they'd be interested in the views of 14% of the population of Saskatchewan (for example), or of a sector that holds title to large swatches of land and controls the kind of resouirces and territory that Hobbema does in Alberta. But my questions elicited not much more than pure indifference.
That's both ignorant (in the real sense of the word) and dangerous (from the point of view of the separatists). First Nations in Quebec are normally politically quiescent. To the surprise of the PQ, however, they emerged from their silence and voted overwhelmingly for Canada in the referendum, a sector that tipped the balance for Canada.
It both cases, it reveals a great deal of hypocrisy in the separatists' understanding of what self-determination exactly means (which I don't agree necessarily means accession to a nation-state). Apparently, some people are more worthy of self-determination than others.
I find it most notable that the AB separatist comes to the surface only when Alberta's economy is booming.
During the down times, when you'd think there'd be more fertile ground for them, they're harder to find than hen's teeth.
Essentially, they are more or less opportunists, not visionaries. The silence on specifics is unsurprising - for the most part, they are firing blanks.
Hmm. Suddenly the room has gone vewwy, vewwy quiet.
Is there something about calm, reasoned discussion that alienates the alienated?
As an Albertan myself, I suspect that what you're seeing is mostly utter frustration with the existing Lieberal Gov't.There is great consternation with (1) the apparent complete dismissal of the democatic process by this gov't and (2)the unpalatable probability that it may continue, if one believes the polls. The concept of separation, I believe, has more to do with distancing ourselves from what has become a despotic regime & hopefully returning to some sense of what we've been taught is a democracy. I'm not a separatist but I must admit that I do feel pretty powerless right now!
From an Unimpressed Albertan
Please forgive this brief aside.
Jim Bobby, a question: I decided to engage in this discussion on the home ground of our friends, and posted a couple of entries at "The Politic". My first couple got through okay: then suddenly the site stopped accepting my messages. New messages, however, are appearing.
Is that what happened to you? Did you make contact with them?
Whooee! Balbu, that's exactly what happened t' me. I take it the selfsame thing happened t' Ian Scott at ianism. I just figger we're banned an' our comments is gettin' rejected. The message I get when I tried postin' it again was sumpin' like "That comment has already been received..."
I never tried contactin' nobuddy. I figger they're numbnutses who's lettin' in friendly comments an' filterin' out critical comments. I reckon they're crafty enuff t' let a few critics get through. I also reckon they're 'bout as intellectually dishonest as they come. The fact that Peter blogs there an' still ain't took back them lyin' accusations he made against me, tells me they ain't the type t' contact. I'd feel like I was pleadin' with 'em t' treat me fair. I shouldn't oughta hafta do that.
I figger the best thing is stay out o' their hand-picked comments section an' tell the world they're numbnutses on my own little boog. They're free t' come by an' defend themselves - which is more than I'm free t' do at their anti-free speech boog.
JB
Jeff, I lost two comments to Stageleft yesterday myself. You are assuredly not being censored: Stageleft has never banned or censored anyone for any reason. I asked what happened to JimBob. Sorry if that strikes you as paranoid. I have sent a message through the Politic comment system, and I will apprise you of their response.
Given their statement that they welcome comments from all points of view, I can only assume that the mysterious failure of JimBob and myself to get through must be a technical glitch. If one of the writers or moderators can assure us that that's the case, great: I have my original texts, and will repost.
Whooee! The latter day Gordon Sinclair's havin' sum troublems with disappearin' comments, too. Ian's got screenshots an' he's got good evidence o' monkey bizness in the deletin' department.
So far as I know, the onliest two comments ever disappeared from my boog was two from JeffBoy. He was able t' post okay right after that so I reckon no harm was done.
JB
Jeff posted twice at
Stageleft, and his posts were diverted to the moderation queue, along with one of mine. Then they all appeared in a bunch. I posted a long reply to Peter Rempel on Stateleft which was lost altogether. Neither SL nor I can figure out what happened.
However, they were NOT removed or censored in any way. Stageleft DOES NOT remove posts, ever. Jeff, is that clear? Are you satisfied?
Now...I am looking for a similar assurance from "The Politic", which boasts on its "about" page of its oppenness to input from all views. So far three posts have failed to appear, and two queries about why have not been answered. I will continue to query, and will post any response I receive here and at Stageleft.
Peter, if you can shed any light on this, that would be helfpul.
Whooee! I see Colbert's found sum explanation fer his missin' comments an' he's layin' the blame on SpamKarma 2.0. I poked 'round on google with spamkarma an' found sum other WordPress boogers got sum troublems with it.
The error message I got from The Politic was exactly the same as the error messages Ian got from Colbert's SpamKarma. I'd say that points t' The Politic usin' SpamKarma an' blockin' legit comments. I ain't sayin' they're doin' it on purpose, now. I am wonderin' how come them first comments I made over t' The Politic got publicated an' then I got blocked from commentin'. If the comments was bein' held in a "spam-suspect" queue, how come they din't ever get approved?
Balbulican, you done wrote t' The Politic. When an' if they give a answer, I'd be much obliged if you was t' post up that answer here on my little boog.
In the meantime, gettin' back on topic, anybuddy got any answers fer them questions I asked up yonder in my startin' out boog story?
JB
Whooee! I don't take advice from lyin' accusers who refuse t' take back their slanderin' lies even when the whole dang world can see they lied. Why would I pay any attention t' what a lyin' false-accuser would tell me I oughta do?
Here's anuther chance, PeteyBoy. You sed I hate Albertans an' that I'm denyin' Albertans the right t' chart their own future. Them's lies. You plannin' t' take 'em back?
JB
Peter, I've sent (so far) four comments to the adminstrator (all very polite, I assure you) through the site comments channel. I don't get the same "page not found" message as I get when I try to post, so I assume they are going through. I have had no response at this point. Is there an email address I could send my query to?
Thanks.
So...I should contact the administrator to find out why my responses are not being carried, except that no one responds to my queries at the site, and you don't want to provide an email address for a query.
Here's a quote from "The Politic" About Us page:
"Our contributors are a collection of minds from across the country committed to free speech and intelligent discussion of important issues, who aim to use these qualities to provoke independent thought and debate. Our intention is to provide an intellectually honest viewpoint on the topics of which we write, in order to nurture public discourse and the free flow of information which all of our contributors cherish as the foundation-stones of a free society."
Well, gosh, I am just HUGELY impressed by their clear and unmistakable commitment to "intellectual honesty", "public discourse", and the "free flow of information", Peter.
Pretty poor form, lads. Very poor indeed.
I personally, have never had any contempt for Alberta (just some of its politicians) and am knowledgeable enough about the province. Also, it's very pretty.
And it's a good thing the Rumpels of the world don't represent Albertans. A good thing indeed.
Whooee! Peter, when you sed I got "contempt for all of Alberta," you lied again. I made it clear I was talkin' 'bout AlienAlbert seaparatists - not all Albertans. You know that but you ain't honest enuff t' say so. I don't wanna waste any more time on a lyin' liar who can't stop lyin'.
Comment here all you want. Tell more lies if you want. Nobuddy believes yer lies an' when you jest add to 'em with more lies, you jest look more crooked.
If I had contempt for Albertans, I'd wanna see 'em separate. If I had contempt for Albertans, I wouldn't support Senate reform. If I had contempt fer Albertans, I wouldn't be bothered by R-CALF. If I had contempt fer Albertans, I'd say so.
I got contempt fer SOME Albertans - the separatist ones. Get it through that unbelievably thick skull o' yers, Pete. I got contempt fer separatist bastards who wanna bust up Canadee. You know damn well that don't include all, or even a bigass number, of Albertans.
I do not hate Albertans. They are my fellow Canajuns. I respect 'em an' I've liked every one of 'em I've ever met. I don't even hate Alberta separatists. I got contempt fer 'em an' I got pity fer 'em. But, shee-it, I don't hate 'em like you sed I do.
I never denied anybuddy their right t' chart their own future like you sed I did. That was a damn lie. You know it an' yer stickin' with it. How can you even look at yer lyin' self in the mirror when you know yer lyin' an' yer stickin' with yer lies?
I come out an' sed Harpoon done sum good stuff when I seen it. I come out an' mocked B.Linda when she walked. I come out hard against AdScammers. I come out fer Triple EEE. I come down hard on the ditherin' Fartin' Martin. I give what I figgered was good advice fer Harpoon an' the Big-C's.
None o' that is enuff fer Alberta separatists. You'll only be happy if I shut up 'bout people tryin' t' bust up MY country an' if I fall inta step with yer snivellin' bitchin' belly-achin' whinin' growsin' an' come out supportin' Alberty separatism.
PeteyBoy, I ain't NEVER gonna support anybuddy who's tryin' t' bust up Canadee. Since you ain't happy with the support I been givin' t' Westerners unless I support separation, there ain't any use tryin' t' talk sense t' sumbuddy like you who don't give no credit fer the support I been givin' the West an' who tells lies an' instead o' takin' back those lies, jest tells anuther lie on top of 'em. There ain't any use talkin' sense t' a liar with his head stuck so far up his poophole.
Comment all you want, like I sed, Pete. I won't be respondin' t'yer comments after this, though. I decided that a liar who won't take back obvious lies ain't worth talkin' to. I ain't a kid like you an' I gotta watch my blood pressure. Dealin' with liars who wanna bust up my country pushes my BP inta the danger zone.
Yores trooly,
JimBobby
Canajun patriot, free-speech advocate
"Of course, there's also the possibility that I just don't give a fuck whether your's or Jim Bob's comments got through."
Thanks, Peter. As always, your intelligence, maturity and civility shine through in the end.
I just received the following response from the moderator at The Politic. Peter indicated that the moderator might prefer not to have his email published, so I have deleted it.
"Hii balbulican,
we're having problems with our spam filter and it seems to be blocking certain individuals comments. I will go in and manually approve your
comment.
Cheers,"
Thank you, Greg: and I apologize for harbouring the suspicion that this was an issue of content.
Peter...taking note of the way adults resolve this kind of thing?
If you guys are finally over your squabble, I'd like to reiterate.
As an Albertan myself, I suspect that what you're seeing is mostly utter frustration with the existing Lieberal Gov't.There is great consternation with (1) the apparent complete dismissal of the democatic process by this gov't and (2)the unpalatable probability that it may continue, if one believes the polls. The concept of separation, I believe, has more to do with distancing ourselves from what has become a despotic regime & hopefully returning to some sense of what we've been taught is a democracy. As it now stands there's more "What we're going to do TO You" than there is "What we're going to do FOR you" coming out of Ottawa. Cretin's reign of complete Arrogance followed by Martin's reign of complete Desperation are the largest contributing factors-IMO.
I'm not a separatist but I must admit that I do feel pretty powerless right now! Given what's been happening, even Voting seems like an act of futility!
How's that JimBobby?
From an Unimpressed Albertan
Whooee! So, I can't write in any language an' my posts are "often riddled with foul language." Not like Peter's poist here when he sed so eloquently - "Of course, there's also the possibility that I just don't give a fuck whether your's or Jim Bob's comments got through." No foul language there.
I posted exactly 3 comments at The Politic. Here they are in their entirety --
*************************
JimBobby Says:
July 28th, 2005 at 1:56 pm
Whooee! Where in the hell do you get the idee I’m “denyin’” anything. Din’t I say fer you t’ go ahead an’ get busy buildin’ yer Alien Albert party? That ain’t denyin’. Din’t I say t’ hold a referendum? How’s that denyin’?
Jest ’cause I reckon yer fightin’ a dumbass losin’ battle don’t mean I’m denyin’ nuthin’. Alien Alberts is out on the fringes o’ polyticks. This ain’t east against west. It’s federalist against separatist. I know lotsa good western folks in Alberty an’ BC an’ I even know a couple in Sasky. None of ‘em is agitating fer quittin’ our great home an’ native land. They’re patriotic good Canajuns who love their homeland.
I figger there’s always a few grumblers an’ malcontents, no matter where you go. When yer livin’ in the best dang country in the world, there ain’t so much excuse fer bitchin’, though. Go spend some time in Bosnia or Afghanistan or Zim-bob-way or China or Mexico or Burma or Baghdad an’ then tell me how bad Canadee is.
Yores trooly,
JimBobby
Peter Rempel Says:
July 28th, 2005 at 2:00 pm
What benefit does Alberta derive from remaining in Canada? A simple question.
JimBobby Says:
July 28th, 2005 at 2:13 pm
Whooee! Well, PeteFeller, you asked that selfsame question over on my own boog an’ I give an answer over there. I’ll answer here, too.
I reckon jest bein’ able t’ say yer livin’ in the best dang country in the whole dang world oughta be benefit enuff. Bein’ able t’ say yer part of a big an’ beautiful home an’ native land oughta be benefit enuff. Bein’ free t’ live an’ work anywheres from St. John’s t’ Victoria oughta be benefit enuff.
Bein’ free t’ agitate fer Alien Albert separatism makes Canajuns a heap better off than most o’ the sorry-ass world.
If yer only lookin’ fer the kind o’ benefits that come by cheque in the mail, who knows? Mebbe King Ralph can pay you more money t’ love Alberty than the feds can pay you t’ love Canadee. 50 years from now, when the oil’s all gone, the Alien Alberts’ grandchildren’ll be thankful they got Canadee’s shoulder t’ lean on.
As far as I’m concerned, the fair weather friends who wanna t’ get paid fer lovin’ is nuthin’ but prostitutes. I don’t care ’bout them sorta benefits. Freedom, equality an’ democracy are the benefits I want an’ Canadee’s deliverin’ in spades.
JimBobby Says:
July 28th, 2005 at 2:19 pm
Where in the hell do you get the idee I’m “denyin’” anything? That’s a simple question, too. When you sed I’m denyin’ yer rights, you accused me o’ doin’ you a wrong. You gonna take it back or not?
***********************
I sed "hell" a coupla times an' I sed "dumbass", too. I wouldn't call them words particular foul but I reckon a high-class outfit like The Politic's gotta be careful allowin' riffraff t' post in teh vernacular.
I sed before if sumbuddy tells me t' piss off, I do. I reckon the Politic din't come out an' tell me but I don't need t' be hit over the head with a 2x4 t' know when I ain't welcome.
I'm purty sure it ain't my grammar or my foul language that's the problem. They don't like what I got t' say an' they'd rather I din't drop by. I'll stay away.
Even though I don't agree with what Peter sez an' I find his use of the F-word offensive, he's welcome t' drop by an' piss in the wind as much as he wants. He's the onliest one I know who's associated with The Politic but if any otehrs from there wanna drop by, feel free. Use gutter language if you think you should.
Yores trooly,
JimBobby
Whooee! AnonyBooger had sumpin' on topic t' say --
"There is great consternation with (1) the apparent complete dismissal of the democatic process by this gov't and (2)the unpalatable probability that it may continue, if one believes the polls. The concept of separation, I believe, has more to do with distancing ourselves from what has become a despotic regime & hopefully returning to some sense of what we've been taught is a democracy."
AnonyFeller, mebbe you din't know that over 52% o' Canajuns voted fer either the DippyWips or the Crooked Grits in the last election in 2004. Only 29.8% voted fer the HarpoonTossers. When the 29% joined up with the rotten separatist BlocHeads an' tried t' topple the gummint an' failed, that was democracy in action. The majority o' Canajuns was dead set against a spring 2005 election an' that was what Harpoon, with 29% o' Canajun behind him, was tryin' t' shove down our throats. Where's the democracy there?
Alberty has 3 million Canajuns livin' there. Ontario has 11 million Canajuns livin' there. Are you sayin' the 3 million oughta have the selfsame power as the 11 million? I reckon that'd make a Albert's vote worth 3.67 times what an Ontarian's vote is worth. Where's the democracy there?
Jest so you know, I sed a few times I'm all fer Triple EEE. I know damn well that Triple E'll give almost 4 times as much senate power t' Alberts as t' Ontarians an' Q-beckers. The voters from PEI'll get 'bout 10 times as much representation per person as Ontarians an' more' twice the representation the Alberts'll get.
But, dang it, Alberts feel strong on Triple E an' there couldn't be nuthin' worse than the senate we got now, so why not give in a little t' the Alberts an' the Sasky folks an' give 'em equal representation in the EEE Senate?
AnonyMan, there's Canajuns all across the country who's fed up with the waste an' corruption. The Grits don't make anythin' close to a hunnert percent sweep in Ontario any more'n the CPC makes a 100% clean sweep in Alberty. Alberts ain't the onliest ones who wanna better gummint.
I mentioned over t' Dust My Broom that Canadee's elected Western PM's before. Joe Clark an' Dief the Chief was both from the West. They was both Conservatives, too. The point I'm makin' is that Canadee CAN elect a Western-led Conservative gummint. We done it before an' there ain't no reason we can't do it again.
You ain't powerless in the face of a despotic regime. This ain't Myanmar. Yer free t' organize an' build up yer Big-C party. All's you gotta do is make it a party that appeals t' enuff Canajuns. When yer party appeals t' enuff Canajuns, yer party'll get the most votes. That's democracy. Majority rule. One man, one vote. Gettin' the gummint you deserve by votin' it in.
If the Big-C's wanna win, they gotta win more voters over. The damn Liberals should be history after AdScam. Why ain't they? 'Cause Harpoon ain't been able t' win over moderates even when his opponents effectively fell on their swords.
Winnin' over moderates is what'll win fer the CPC. When B.Linda lit out an' so many sed 'good riddance,' they sed good riddance t' moderate votes. When a party don't care 'bout moderates, they're only applealin' t' the fringe. They call 'em tyeh fringe on accounta there ain't a lot of 'em. Without a lot of 'em, how d'y'expect 'em t' get elected?
Yores trooly,
JimBobby
Jeff...come on. JB is responding to the one Conservative who actually, thoughtfully addressed his question. Let the folks who want to talk, talk.
balbulican said ...
Hmm. Suddenly the room has gone vewwy, vewwy quiet.
Is there something about calm, reasoned discussion that alienates the alienated?
Nope. Let me introduce myself. I am an alienated Albertan, and, earlier this year, became a supporter of Alberta independence. I plan on becoming an organizer for Alberta independence beginning this fall.
At the outset, let me make something perfectly clear. I bear no animosity at all towards the people of Ontario that support the Liberal Party. It is in their self-interest to do so. At the same time, I am not going to accept any of your assumptions about the Liberal Party of Canada, or the federal government. If you choose to believe LPC propaganda that it is some sort of grand national party, that governs for all regions, go ahead and believe it. It just doesn't matter to me one bit. In fact, I'm happy about it, because as a devoted Alberta separatist, the best ally I have is an eastern Canadian electorate that continues to vote in the Liberals. Thanks dudes.
In response to the post:
1. Steven Harper
JB is correct in noting that most supporters of Alberta independence still voice support for Harper as a federalist politician. I still support him, and will vote for him again in the next election. At the same time, I am certainly resigned to the fact that he is going nowhere
in federal politics. I predict that he will lose the next election handily, and will step down as Conservative leader. Then things will get interesting. I doubt any candidates from Alberta, BC, or Saskatchewan will even bother to contest the Conservative leadership. This will be an important development, because unlike both the Liberals and NDP, federal conservative parties have always had strong leadership candidates from the west. All three parties will then have eastern Canadians running the show, and Albertans will see nothing but eastern Canadian federal leaders beamed into their homes. This should present the Alberta independence movement with good opportunities to grow.
2. Money, money, money
Alberta independence is not about money, money, money, nor is Quebec separatism about culture and language. Quebec separatism is a manifestation of ethnocentric nationalism. Alberta independence is (for me at least), about replacing an undemocratic, colonialist form of government with a democratic one. Given the absolute rejection by eastern Canada of even the most timid democratic reforms that have been proposed from within the federal system, independence becomes the only option.
3. Currency
On the question of currency, I can only say that whether we continue using the Canadian currency (which Quebec plans on doing), switch to the American dollar, or have our own currency, would be something our experts in government would have to decide. I know that John Manley was part of a body that recently recommended a common North American currency, so, it may be that all of Canada will have converted to a North American dollar long before Alberta separates, making this entire concern irrelevant. If we change to our own currency, I obviously cannot give you an answer as to how it will do on world markets, just like you will be unable to tell me how far the Canadian dollar will fall on referendum night. By the way, given that you are a left-winger, don't you feel a tad bit hypocritical basing a political argument on what currency speculators may do years from now?
4. Military
Of course we will build our own military. My prediction is that it would be quite small, but very well equipped and trained. I would imagine the Americans would welcome a new partner in North America that is actually prepared to stay at the table when the bill comes for North American defence, and not hide out in the washroom as Canada does. I don't know if you've figured this out yet, but Canada under the Liberals and NDP is basically viewed as a freeloader by the Americans. George Bush pointed this out to Paul Martin in somewhat more polite terms during his recent visit. Maybe you should let the Americans speak for America.
5. Border crossings
What is your point here exactly? Who do you think pays for Canada's border crossings now? Don't you have the foggiest idea of how the finances of this country work?
6. Free trade
On free trade, let me remind you that it was the eastern-based parties who campaigned against free trade. I'm sure I don't need to remind you of all the apocalyptic rhetoric that the Liberals and NDP used in describing free trade between 1988 and 1993. Surely you remember what I mean - the border disappearing and Canada becoming the 51st state by 1998. Albertans have always supported the free trade initiatives. I don't see any reason why that would change.
7. Immigration
Why wouldn't Alberta accept immigrants? Our province was built on immigration. We have a long history of persons moving here from Saskatchewan and Newfoundland, along with a myriad of other places. I expect that the demand to immigrate to Alberta would increase after independence, given that Alberta always prides itself on having the most competitive business climate and quality of life in the country. These ideals appeal to an awful lot of people JB. You just can't keep a good man (or woman) down.
It is up to Canada to decide its own immigration policies.
8. Diplomats
Perhaps you're not aware of this, but Alberta already has its own diplomats in Washington. These are in addition to the Canadian diplomats, for which we are also paying. As a small country, I doubt that we would have our own embassy in every country. I believe the smaller countries pool their resources and share diplomatic facilities in a lot of countries. This would probably be the best course of action for Alberta.
9. Trade
We would trade with the world the same way we do now - by truck, train , and air. What's your point? Are the eastern Canadians going to shut down Alberta's borders with Saskatchewan, BC, and the NWT? Have you considered the ramifications to the economies of Saskatchewan, BC, and the NWT of such actions, or, as an eastern Canadian progressive, is it more important to you to punish Alberta for daring to be an independent democratic state?
10. Federal property in Alberta
Not a difficult problem for reasonable people to resolve. You see, Albertans pay federal taxes too. Those taxes are used by the federal government to acquire properties. We therefore have as much right to the properties as you do. As such, all federal property would have to be split between Albertans, and the ROC, in accordance with their contributions.
11. Federal Gov't employees
Who are you referring to exactly, and how many are there? Do you mean the tax collectors? Seriously. The only federal employees in Alberta I have ever met work for CCRA. But wait, there are the prison guards, and I'm sure there must be some lawyers. I dunno. I guess we'd keep the ones that do something useful. You can have the rest back.
12. First Nations
Yep, taking on all of the onerous obligations of the federal gov't wrt First Nations may bankrupt us. I mean, the substandard housing the feds provide, the complete lack of infrastructure on reserves, the lack of health care. Gosh, how are we ever going to afford it!
13. Division of Alberta
Sorry dude, but it can't happen. At least, it can't be imposed by Canada. I'm curious though, how do you propose to divide Alberta? Do you think you have a legal argument, or are you going to send the army in and start shooting?
14. Citizenship
Any Albertan who wants to maintain Canadian citizenship should be allowed to do so. It's a matter of personal choice. Many Americans and other foreigners live and work in Alberta without a problem.
15. CPP
Are you not aware that Albertans have contributed to the CPP? Are you not aware that any province can opt out of the CPP at any time? Why would you suggest that Canada would be reluctant to finance Albertans' pensions when we have financed them ourselves with our own contributions?
16. The Charter
If Alberta were to secede, the Charter, which is part of the Canadian Constitution, would no longer apply. I would imagine that long before secession, Albertans would agree on their own constitution that would include constitutionally entrenched rights along the lines of the Charter or the U.S. Bill of Rights. The idea that Albertans are opposed to individual rights is groundless Liberal propaganda. Your party colors are starting to show, JB.
17. Alberta's prosperity in 50 years
My answer to you is this: I have no idea what Alberta will look like in 50 years, and neither do you. We have been through tough times before, and pulled through. In fact, Ottawa has created some of those tough times. With the secret Kyoto implementation plan looming, we may be in for some more tough times.
Alberta independence is about process and beliefs. I happen to believe that the sooner we rid ourselves of Ottawa, the better off we will be. Even Roger Gibbins, who is a federalist and was commissioned by the Calgary Herald to respond to Leon Craig's piece, concedes that Alberta would prosper outside of confederation. Fear of consequences is not a big issue amongst the Albertans I know, and we certainly won't be swayed by the apocalyptic rantings of some eastern Canadian "progressive blogger". However, even if someone credible did manage to convince me that Alberta would suffer an economic setback, I would still support independence. It just isn't about the money.
Whooee! Thankee fer them answers, AbeFeller. I can see you got it all figgered out.
My true colours, Abe, are Canadee's colours. If you think fer a second that I'm a Liberal Party man, you don't know much 'bout me. All you need t' know is here in this little boog an' anybuddy who's read it more'n once could tell you I ain't a crooked gritfeller.
"5. Border crossings
What is your point here exactly?"
My point is that border security is a bigass expense an' logistical issue an' all's I asked was how it's gonna work. Buildin' an' mannin' checkpoints at every road crossing from Canadee t' Alberty ain't gonna be easy an' it's gonna mean Canadee hasta man her side o' the new border, too. Policin' the border fer terrist infiltrators an' illegal wetbacks ain't no small chore, neither. My point was like my other points. I was askin' if anybuddy's got all the answers. You do, sez you.
Anyways, AbeMan, you go out an' carry on with yer organizin' an' buildin' up yer AlienAlbert Separatist Party an' try and get enuff o' yer feller Alberts t' vote in a referendum t' split Canadee in two. I sure as hell ain't tryin' t' stop anybuddy from signin' up party members an' holdin' a referendum.
I figger I gotta right t' stand up fer a united Canadee, though. Not only that, I reckon it's my duty as a cityzen t' stand up fer this great home an' native land when it's threatened. Separatism threatens my homeland an' I intend t' stand up against separatists whether they're in Q-Beck, Alberty or Hans Island.
AbeFeller, I don't agree with yer despret polyticks but I say yer a reasonable, commonsense, honest an' intelligent feller. The way you stepped up t' the plate an' throwed out them answers o' yers tells me yer a real man an' not a bad feller. I hope you feel free t' drop by an' chew the fat here on my little boog any time you want. I reckon we'd probbly see eye t' eye on more'n one thing, Abe.
Yores trooly,
JimBobby
JimBobby,
My feeling about being powerless has more to do with the fundamental flaws in the system than with vote weighting. We're all getting the shaft anyway, unless you're Big Business, but that's too superficial!
I agree with an elected Senate being a good FIRST step toward re-establishing what I would consider to be a democratic process.
Another would be to also elect our Supreme Court judges. There's waaay too much party influence in both places.
Furthermore, free votes in the House of Commons ought to be the norm, as opposed to what amounts to extorion by threatening MPs , who used to be 'our representatives',with expulsion from the party if they try to represent their constituents.
This behavior ensures the survival of the Party sometimes to the detriment of the country. What's wrong with this picture? EVERYTHING!
It's part of the argument for Recall legislation, like that'll ever happen!
The assumption that I support the CPC is somewhat presumptuous and is apparently only based on the fact that I'm in Alberta.
That said, they DO seem like the only sensible alternative to the bunch of self serving scum enabling this rotten gov't to continue.
It's a Great Country, but we have a BAD deal. Democracy shouldn't die at the ballot box!
End of rant.
From an Unimpressed Alberta
Whooee! Thankee fer the civilized rantin', Unimpressed Alberta Feller.
It wasn't the fact yer in Alberty made me think yer a CPC guy. It was that near quote from the CPC mantra that had me thinkin' that way. When you talked 'bout -- "the apparent complete dismissal of the democatic process by this gov't" -- it sounded jest like what the CPC sez an' that was mainly why I figgered you's probbly a Big-C feller. I reckon the livin' in Alberty part mighta added t' my mistaken idee. I get mistook fer a Libreal sumtimes an' I don't like it none so I'm sorry I took you fer a CPC supporter when you ain't one. My mistake. I was wrong. I hope you'll accept my apology.
I been doin' me sum studyin' up on this here proportional representation stuff. I reckon it'd be a good way t' get us more democratic. The way it is now, you could have a ridin' with four strong candidates an' the winner'd only need 26% o' the vote t' get 100% o' the seats (1 seat). That'd mean 74% voted fer other guys an' din't get any representation, at all.
Now we got 4 parties runnin' in most places outside Q-Beck - LPC, CPC, NDP, GPC. In Q-Beck they got the BlocHeads, too. They'd only need 21% to win 100% representation.
So, the losin' side (even if it accounts fer a sizable majority o' voters) don't get ANY representation. The first guy past the post gets the winner-take-all parliment seat an' he can run things an' vote in the house as if he had 100% support from voters. That ain't fair, sez I.
Canajuns like t' do what's fair. Sumtimes our gummint needs t' be shook up an' told that what they're doin' ain't fair. I reckon when enuff Canajuns see that there's sum real unfairness goin' on, they'll work fer change. That's what happened with the selfsame sexy marryin' deal. Enuff Canajuns woke up an' saw we wasn't treatin' the gay fellers an' lezzy gals equal an' we done sumpin 'bout it.
I reckon it ain't impossible fer Westerners t' get through t' the remembers o' parliment 'bout unfair stuff. Shee-it! I reckon there's more Westerners that there are GLBT folks an' they got what they was lookin' fer.
I figger there's a lot more chance o' democratic reform in Canadee than o' the AlienAlbert separatists winnin' a referendum. Practical-thinkin' Alberts who gotta grip on reality'd be best off workin' fer reform an' leave off with the separatist agitatin'.
I useta have me a ink pen with this here little prayer printed onto it ---
"God, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
the courage to change the things I can;
and the wisdom to know the difference."
Where I reckon the separatists need sum Almighty help is in "the wisdom to know the difference" department.
JB
Whooee! AbeFeller, I meant t' answer you on sumpin' you sed but I think I cut it short when Ma called me fer dinner. Sorry fer the delay. I jest found sum time.
"11. Federal Gov't employees
Who are you referring to exactly, and how many are there? Do you mean the tax collectors? Seriously. The only federal employees in Alberta I have ever met work for CCRA."
Abe, if you get mail an' ever been inside a post office, you met sum federal employees. If you ever been protected by the RCMP, they was gettin' their paycheque from the feds. If you ever crossed over inta the Benighted States o' Merka, you seen sum federal employees at the border. If you ever flew in a commercial airliner, federal employees ensured your safety.
There's over 8,800 federally employed public service workers in Alberta. http://tinyurl.com/7obeq
If you ever saw any o' the hundreds o' fellers an' gals who work at the federal prisons in Edmonton, Bowden an' Drumheller, you saw sum other federal employees. Not jest the guards, neither - the laundry folks an' the admins an' a whole lot more'n CO's. The spinoff biznesses that are suppliers t' the federal prison system ain't paid by the feds but their jobs wouldn't exist if them federal prisons din't operate in Alberty.
When you sed that you think the onliest federal employees you've ever seen is tax collectors (an', believe me Abe, it ain't jest Alberts who don't care fer payin' taxes), that tells me you ain't lookin' to hard at how yer federal gummint is providin' services an' employment in yer province.
There's federally funded scientists workin' fer Health Canada's public health division right in Alberty researchin' BSE so's Alberta cowmen can make a decent livin'. Health Canadee's got a bigass diabetes research facility in Alberty, too.
The University of Alberty gets federal funding for all sortsa research projects an' faculty positions. Sum folks may be UofA employees but the UofA wouldn't be able t' pay 'em if it weren't fer the federal money comin' in.
It ain't a accurate pitcher t' say that the only federal employees in Alberty is taxmen. I reckon mebbe you jest din't think o' postal service, police service, border patrols, university profs, airport safety fellers, public service workers and all.
Now, I reckon mebbe you got an answer. Mebbe Alberty can afford t' hire all these folks an' pick up the slack if you bust up Canadee an' there ain't any more Gummint o' Canadee paycheques rollin' inta the new republic. Mebbe. Mebbe not.
JB
No apology necessary, JB, it's an honest enogh mistake.
I didn't take my quoted statement from the CPC, I just made it up on the fly based on my observations. However, if it's what they're saying too, well at least it shows that they're paying attention.
As to your little prayer, which I'm familiar with, when it comes to the political process, it almost seems like we're at the point that we have to accept the things we cannot change, without the serenity.
An Unimpressed Albertan
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